Welcome to the Discipline of Freedom. Today we're in Menorca inside a truly beautiful space with Pablo and Luca. We speak in English with some Spanish woven through. I thought about translating it later, but when I was editing, it felt wrong. This conversation belongs exactly as it was recorded in their place with their energy. So Vo Bear with my Espanol. And let the cadence carry you. We took design, devotion, and the quiet courage of building something exquisite from the ground up and the fearlessness that's required to make changes as you're called to. Let's begin. Okay, so I'm sitting here today in Menorca, in El, is that the Ella? With Pablo and Luca. They have the most beautiful two design shops. So there's. Two beautiful people. And two beautiful shops. I came to the shop once and then I came again. And then I thought, oh wow. I need to talk to these guys and see what was the journey that brought them to create these shops. I think I've been to your shop as well, but this is the one that I come back to, which is not favoritism. So, and then I discovered that Pablo is an architect and that Luca is the business head. And so, you know, Menorca is this gorgeous island in the ballet Ericks in Spain. And what surprised me, what surprised me every time I come, I've been to mayorca a number of times, and it's the details, it's just, there's a sensibility. There's a pride in the place. And you see this in teeny little, signals all over the place. You know how this morning, I saw a man get out of his car and pick up some litter, you know, and I just thought, oh my God, that's so crazy. It's nothing to do with him. And then the street signs, the signage on the buildings and, the stores. And this one is an outstanding store. You can go and check them out on Instagram. It's at apao vent, 22. And at Apao Cinco, this is, APAO five. So I will put the links in the show notes. So this is the discipline of freedom, and I'm always curious as to how people get from where they start. And how they got to here. And I think this is so useful to share for other creatives because it's so inspiring. I mean, I travel to be inspired and when I came into this shop, I was just so inspired. It's so excellently curate it. Like there are so many things if I didn't, have a limitation of what I could carry, there would be a lot more things, that I would've bought. So I always start with looking at people's astrology and it's so interesting. Pablo is an Aries like I am, and Luca is a Libra and, and Pablo's. Mercury is sitting on KO's son, which, you know, which in a sense for me, I look and I think, okay, well there's an appreciation of you shining and the intelligence, you know, so there's a number of little things in your charts that just really makes me think this is a great partnership. Ah, yes, that's true. Yes. See and so you are from Argentina, or sorry, Pablo's from Argentina. You could see me, I'm Irish. We talk with our hands out the Spanish too. And Pablo's from Argentina, from Cordoba and Lucas from Lagar initially. I know this is gonna be a good conversation. Two, two different cultures, uh, mix them up and, uh, this is the result. Yeah, it's a beautiful result. And Paolo's an architect, as I mentioned earlier, and so what I'm going to do with the conversation is, is we're going to record it in probably several languages, and then I will manage somehow to translate it later. Okay. So the question that I always start with is, what was valued when you were growing up? Like, what was it that you, you saw that was super important in your family in your parents, or in your culture, that stuck with you. This is lupus speaking. I think it's very important since the beginning. Uh, your family, all the rules they, they gave to you, the respect from other people and, the way you have to act to, to make everything, beautiful and very calibrated. I'm Libra so I need to stay in a place where everything is well, uh, well made and everything is very, very, and my family. Taught me this, uh, because, when I was in Italy, we had a little library with the Shary things and, I was working with, with my father, and then he left the shop. But I run the shop and, I start my own business. But, you know, what was your first business? I always, worked in a shop. Oh, wow. For myself? Yes. Amazing. Yes. Since the beginning. I was born, at, uh, one 30 and my mother was in the shop until one, so she That's fantastic. And yes. Oh, that's right. That's amazing. That was in the 65 was about, uh, 60 years ago, and it was very nice. So I grew, grew up with this kind of culture, the of working and respecting and, uh, beauty things. It's really important me, you for this significant birthday in only a couple of days. Yeah, about two weeks. We'll talk about that celebration later. Um, oh, well that's, that's extraordinary. I always talk about that. First we have to apprentice to something and we do this in our twenties, but you started much younger than your twenties. And then we become the journeyman, the craftsman. And I think this is what I see in Mayorca and in Menorca is this, this still this love of the artisan. There's a love of craft and of beauty. And it's true also in Italy, it's certainly not Immediately. evident in Australia. You can find it. Yes. But it's, it's so informed for centuries even because, you know, maybe if from Australia and people now realize that's, uh, normally when, when I was a child, I used to go to a church, and in church there was a Rafael hanging on the wall. We, we, we grew up with a lot of, beauty things and art around us, but for me it was normal. So yes, it was something that I learned since the beginning. A sort of imprinting. You know, that we have, or I have in my case, and this is why I always look for the perfect match of everything, even the colors of the wall and the stuff we sell. Everything is, related with us. And, we really think when we buy something because we, we, we have some, roles, some, characteristics, things. You know, and the shop must be representative of us. So this is not simply a shop that we sell things or we do architectural or design, but, this is something that's really, explain how we are. You know that it is, I think, and you can feel it, it's an energy as much as the beautiful things. Yes. You know, and that I think is also so important. Yes. It's really important because you work lots of hours in the shop and, sometimes clients are not so easy to, you know, and so, and at the end of the day, you must be satisfied with what you've done or what you are doing. And, so this is, for me is very important. Even freedom for, for Pablo as well. He, he needs, to work in a very good place. From, the beauty point of view. Well, to, to reference the astrology. So Lucas astrology, just to give the big three, your son is in Libra. And your ascendant is in Capricorn. So Libra is about harmony and balance and aesthetics. It's ruled by Venus and, you know, and it wants everything to be beautiful and it wants everyone to be beautiful. Yeah. And it'll fight for that. Sometimes it's very stressed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And when it's expressing itself, it does that in, in a really elegant and graceful way. When it's expressing yourself when things don't go its way, we all have another side to us. That's true. But that is so interesting that you have it, and that's your 10th house, so you're known for, you know. Really caring about beautiful things and for that equilibrium harmony and the beauty. And then your mc, which is, you know, where the sun was shining brightest the day you were born is in the 11th house and Scorpio. So it's like this deep essence of bringing it to other people, like wanting other people to experience that as well. And I would say you've certainly succeeded. Um, and then your moon is in the fifth house in Taurus. And Taurus wants to taste, it, wants to touch, it wants to feel, it likes beautiful fabrics, it likes luxury, it wants, all the sensual, um, gifts of the world. And, that's your self-expression. So you're really living into your chart. And I always say to people that if your moon isn't expressed, then there's always something missing. Like there's a kind of a relentless pursuit of more, and it would seem to me, you know, looking around and you know, from the middle that I know that you are certainly living into that. And Pablo we will talk about, and so Pablo speaks less English and yes. So, so and so. And so look, that's so interesting that you started so young in business and it was just your path and you followed it, like, which always takes a tremendous amount of courage to follow one's path. And so, Pablo, for you, what would you say, what brought, what was valued when you were young? Um, qua the ba a. Like engineering. Oh, engineering. Ah. C. C. Um. Well, I is a DIY and you know, but not, and is on, um, Len is on. Um. Ah, so, uh, come in my, my house and take a Lego pieces and construct building. Yes. Ah, fantastico. After four years, I don't like me, don't like me, don't like me. I change to architectural to, but great foundation. What? Amazing foundation. Yeah. Yeah. Carlos, cia. Um, I'm going to say the essence to remind me to make sure that translation is good, is that, Pablo's father was. An engineer and he made things. And you in, in a sense, you have a similar background, but you wanted to do things better and you wanted to do things in a more creative way. And from school you went to engineering school. And it's so interesting because I we're all the, pretty much the same age. I'm 62, you're 65 and you're 67. Um, you went to U University or college to get a job, you know, and art school was like not considered a good option. And engineering the world always needs engineers and architecture more challenging. But you went to college for engineering and thought, oh, no, no, no, no. I can't be doing this. Yes. Um, and so after that you, you went to architecture and I think it was like, for me, I did construction first. First I did business, and then I did construction. And my father thought when are you ever going to leave? When are you gonna start, start working? And then when I went to design school, it was like, I felt I was at home. You know? It's like that, ah, it's like a respirator. I, I could breathe. I felt all right, these are my people, this is my place. And, but that was in still in Cordoba? When you graduated from architecture? No, in Mendoza. Mendoza. In Mendoza. And did you stay, so where? La Garda In Italy. Where's Mendoza? In Argentina. Yes. And so I think we've got, more than one city and after when arrived, uh, to Spain in Madrid. Um, so what age did you arrive in Madrid? Uh, 2007. 2007? Yeah. Yes. 40. 40. 40. Oh wow. Yeah, 40. And all the people, my friends in Argentina say, me, if you want to go to Europe, uh, now, now, because you are, uh, 40 years and after it is very difficult now or not and always you had the desire to come to Europe. Yeah. And so the influences of architecture, I mean, you know, I've been to Buenos Aires, and my biggest surprise was when I went to, um, I was the sitting in the middle of Brazil. Ah, no, no, no, no. The capital, no, no, no, no, no, no bra. It's one extraordinary architect after another. And I landed there not knowing that, and I was looking and I was going, oh my God, is that, it is a city designed, totally designed, uh, yeah. There's a lot of other cities, modern cities that are completely designed and they didn't do what Brazilia did. Uh, you know, so that was, so the influences of architecture, in Argentina, uh, did you travel as a child? Yeah. And when, when studied, architectural History Cities, uh, I will know the, will know the city. So it, it's really opened your curiosity and drive to come to live in Europe and so, and to through, as own arch a architecture for in Argentina. Wow. So the, so the s in in residential or co commercial locals and, but the desire was still there to come to Europe. Mm. Yes. How was the experience CCC. Cc. And am I understanding correctly, six years you worked in Madrid? Without the title of architect and then without, without, and, and so, because my understanding, my impression of Spain is that they, they don't have the same respect for South America as they do for, for themselves. Yeah. Yes, it could be. There's a sense of They're the colonies. Yeah. A little bit of this. And so you had to study again. You had to redo your exams to be seen as at the same level. The, the, the final project, again, to qualify. Yes. Two years. Right. Two years studying. Polytechnical University. Wow. So was the experience very challenging? You know, because you come with Yeah. A certain level., I had that experience. I had a Spanish husband, best and worst of times I always describe it as, and he was a landscape designer. And when he came to Sydney. He had at that stage, probably 20 experience, and he was, I was 40. He was about 40, so 20 years and really was a beautiful designer, but he didn't have the language, and didn't have the self-confidence. Yeah. You know, and even though I knew many people and I was well connected and he got great interviews, but he couldn't find his way. And, and so it was a really challenging time. It was very challenging time for me. Let me tell you. It was a very challenging time for him as well to arrive in a country and not be in the same position that he had been in Spain. And I've lived in many different countries and I know what it's like for, to rock up and kind of go like, yeah, but how do I make this work? This is good. I mean, even when I decided to come to Spain, I was running a shop. It was good. In Italy. In Italy, and I had my own house and so on, but even so I decided to leave Italy and to start a new, but it's extraordinary courage. Yeah. Otherwise you get bored. No, as you said before, I mean, yeah, sometimes you have to change and, and it's more stimulated for yourself to do something like this. I, I've never thought that, changing our beds at all. I've always, yes, I always find that a positive, uh, side of the, the, the changing. I mean, it's, but it's a certain temperament and I think it's a creative temperament. You know, there's certain people who have this adventurous spirit. And very often like when I was growing up, I really wanted to be a designer. I wanted to be a creative, but it wasn't seen as the smartest move, you know, to do something like engineering or banking was seen as a much more sensible thing to do. And to have the courage to move, to have the courage to change is, is more remarkable than I think the people who. Change realize, because so I'm sure we can all attest to people who grew up in the same town, in the same neighborhood, um, you know, doing the same jobs and you know, and they do the same jobs all their lives and they have, you know, the two children, and, you know, and it's, and it's not a comparison. It's not, it's better or worse, but there is an impulse, for some people that's in you in Pablo it's in his 10th house. For Luca it's in your 12th house and you know, it's in that space that you may not always know it, but your Venus. Um, which rules your sunshine, is in the 12th house. So it is this drive for, to find that beauty it's the drive to need to do it. Yeah. And also your Mars is there, so, and Mars is our ambition and Mars is our will, so sometimes I think that says, because I'm 60, I don't have. Much time. Talking about job, because I, I have to work five, six years and then it's finished. But if I was 50, for instance, I'm always thinking about a new shop, a new, because I still thinking that what I'm doing. Maybe it's, it's like a, a drug. You need to always a new achievement. Now when you finish this, you need a new one. I don't feel that I'm risk my life or there's nothing bad, bad, worse than, uh, illness. This is something that you cannot, solve, you know, when you are I, yeah, but everything can be good. Just if you feel it, if you want it, if you like it, you have to like it a lot. You, you find that the, the strength to, to do it, and then you realize that it's very easy. It's easy for, you, I completely agree. If that's within you, it's not even a question. It's the creative life, you know, it's the artist, the artist needs to feed itself in that way. Whereas, you are in Menno and many, many people come here for a week. You know, there's other people who come for two weeks and that's their two weeks outta their year. And here you are living this creative life. Yeah. Which is so different. You know, you're still stepping out of. The norm of what is considered to be, life. So from the point of view of that, so what age did you leave? Italy I was 42. My parents of course, didn't agree, but I said to them, that's, I need to, to, to go and have at least one here. You know, when you sometimes need to, to think about yourself and you need one here and decided to do with your life, I said, I want to go to Spain because I want to learn a language. I want to live in a city. I come from a small village. I wanted to go to a big city. And you had a shop, in the small village? Yeah. Yes. And it was a bookstore as well? It was very good. It was the fair shop, so it was, after my father was me. Did they have to go back to work then for a year? No, no. I gave, I gave it to my sister. I said to my sister, if you want to run my shop, it's okay. Do what you want, but just let me free. And in astrology at that, around that time is the Uranus awakening. It's a Uranus opposition. So it's a midlife. It's a Neptune Square it's like that moment where you go, is this all there is? Yeah. You know, you can throw things away, but it's also that moment where you realize, okay. It's gotta be more than this. Yeah. And you begin to question and it happens for so many people. For a lot of people they get divorced for a lot of people. They find God for other people. They do different things. And you came to Spain? Yes, actually. We know. And I married a Spanish man. We met, so I came in 2008, it was February, and I know two mad in October. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You think the same? Moment. Oh, I was in Barcelona that year. No, I was really fond of Madrid. I never thought about Barcelona. Yeah. Well, Madrid is a great town. Better than Madrid, but Madrid is more cozy. Yeah. These people are really friendly. Yes. Are different. And very different. Yeah. Yeah. Very different. Yeah. Yes. It feels to me when I go to Madrid, I feel like, is El capital, and it's very easy to get friends in Madrid and Barcelona. It's so difficult because they're very close. They're very Yes, Al Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's different. It's different. It is very different. Yeah. Yeah. The sensibility is very different. I've only spent days in Madrid, but I spent a year in Barcelona, but I agree with you completely. The, mid the anos, they like to, um, it's about life. It feels like it's about life. It's like they don't permit you to get you into their circle. In Barcelona. Barcelona, yeah. And Madrid is completely different. The opposite side people are more friendly and you know, I, I knew a lot of people in Madrid and, uh, it was very easy to talk, uh, even if I wasn't, uh, speak Spanish. At the beginning, my Spanish was really Did you go to school for Spanish? Actually, I, I did an intensive course one month and then I start talking. The street and in the shop I found a job. And when you're learning a language, when I was at the very beginning, you don't know what you don't know. And I think to learn a language, to communicate has to be more important than getting it right. And I think that stops a lot of people learning a language. Yeah, that's true. And if you can get over your own ego that you are fucking up, that you're saying things really badly, you can communicate because as we know, there's only 7%. That's the words. The rest is the Yeah. But what you are in a, in a place that you have to talk, you would find a force to talk and so, yeah. And even if you are. If you do a lot of mistakes, of course, but, uh, like when I speak English, I don't speak very well English, but, you speak English well, I try. Yeah. I've been in England, living for a while also. Before you came to Madrid? Yeah, I was 24. Oh, right. Yeah. That was your first experience of living obviously outside. Yes. Right. And in London something? No, not in London, unfortunately, because it was too big and too expensive at the time. I spent, one year studying in Cambridge. Oh, lovely sitting. No, hardship. Yeah. But, uh, the idea, you know, I've always thought about living outside and abroad, you know? Yeah. Because I think it's very interesting. I think people should bring their children and to another country and leave them their. To learn things to. Yes. And nowadays, I, I see the family are really very protective to their son and they don't want them to live up, up road because, I dunno, it's dangerous or whatever. Well, it's always been dangerous. We just know now, of course, you know, we know immediately now because people are tracking them, they really don't know how important is this experience. It's really important. My father used to call traveling the University of life. Yes. Yeah. Sometimes it's better to, to live, up road than to have a career. Yeah. Well, and also I think you learn about yourself, you learn about your resilience, and you learn about your strengths and your weaknesses. Yeah. Your, and all of those. How to stay alone and yes. To manage yourself to new, new things, I think it's very interesting. Yes, it is very interesting. Yeah. You're speaking to the converter. I've done it many times. Like I've lived in New York, in Boston and San Francisco and in Barcelona and Ada. Um, and then I've lived in country Australia. So my sister says London, Paris, New York, Barcelona, Sydney, Waka, Waka, like, what the fuck. Um, so you've met in Madrid? Yes. We met and then in Madrid. And uh, you were architecting. Yeah. It was really. Sparks flu. I, well, wow. I, it was love at Versa Sight. That's true. If it exists. Yeah. It's love at Versa Sight. Because when I saw him, I said, this is the man I'm looking for. I was really? Yes. And they're still thinking after 18 years. Well, that's so beautiful. Yes. But sometimes we fight, of course, but because never different kind of point of view. Tomorrow is the anniversary now when we, when we married. When you got married. Oh. For the studies. Two years. Two years ago. That's so beautiful. And then now, then we start talking and, uh. We are now. So you met in Madrid, but we're a long way from Madrid and in Menorca. Yeah. And so you live here permanently now? Yeah. So when did you arrive in Madrid? 2007. And of in, at beginning of the 2008. So the beginning of like with the Spanish, like to say, which is the financial crisis re That's true, yes. I moved back from Australia. I've been always trying to escape Australia ever since I got there. And I decided that 2007 would be the time that I would move. And I moved to, um, Barcelona and I remember meeting people and they said to me, oh, your portfolio is wonderful. If you were to pick the worst time to come, it would be now Yeah, the same, very same for me. Yeah. To work with in architectural study, a team of, architecturals, and of course the age because we were not, 25 years old. Yeah. So necessity, Rio Mass Alpha. See? Um, so we all convened in Spain in 2007, which was the beginning of the financial crisis essentially, that Barings Bank because none of us were young. We were not beginning our careers. So we were all at the point really of demanding a decent job and a decent salary. Um, and so you worked in retail which would've been really hard hit Yes. As I told you before, I came here to pass one here Yeah. And decided what to do with my life. I came February, in September, my mother called me that she become, you know, mama Italiana. And she said, me, oh, oh, you got a job or you come back two yours. And so I said, no, I don't want to come back to Italy. Now I'm pretty good here in Spain. I want to stay. So I start looking for a job and in three days I get a job. In a shop in the center of Madrid. And I worked there almost two years and a half, something like this. Then I had a problem with the manager. So. I stopped and I did another job, that I didn't like, but was really comfortable. But it was not, it wasn't mine because was, uh, calling people. Uh, I was working for the call center of Nokia. Oh, right. Oh my God. Yes. We haven't heard that word for a long time. And I was in the department of the, the, the complaint. Oh, so all the time was really for the intelligence. And they say, what's that song? I am not the complaints department. It was very stressed. It was good. The salary was good and so on, but, uh, it wasn't my job. So for fortunately, Nokia disappeared, so everyone was, in the street once again. I stayed three months, thinking about, what's next. And when I decided to go back to the shops working, then I found a very good job in, in a shop, which was a chain, it was a new designer in, Madrid. And, they had three shops. I was working in one of the three shops, what's the name of the shop? It's, Rivera. The, at the beginning was Eduardo Rivera. He was a designer with this mother. And I worked, four years and I learned a lot of things. And, when I stopped, they were already 10 or 15 shops in Madrid and all around, Spain. But then, we came to Menorca in 2012, and I was really fond of B Alice Island, and I always thought about, yes. We, we came two or three times mm-hmm. For deciding, but I decided to come here. I just say, because we wasn't the same. But at the end I say, no, I slow you, you move my to decide. Well, it's interesting because you're the Aries, which is the pioneer, contradict, contradictory ing. Well, we'll have a look and see. So you decided and he thought, oh, I can't live without him. So you, your ascendant, we, oh, we spoke about your ascendant and Pisces. So the dream. And the, your sun is in the second house, and the second house is how you make your money. You know, so the sun. So it's like you shining brightly as the Aries pioneer it's how you communicate and your discipline is there. So it's interesting'cause definitely, I would've thought that you would you would be the pioneer. You'd be the one who's saying, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm looking to see where your Mars is. Your Mars is over here in the eighth house in Libra. So, yes. So there's a little bit of tension around your son and your Mars in terms of, you wanting to find that balance. And probably there's something about money. Let me see where there is about wanting some security. Yeah. Which is in your fourth house. In your fourth house. You've got, Venus in Gemini and it's wanting the security of the beauty in the home and in the neighborhood. Which is in your Gone Gone. No. Now we got to Menorca. Yeah. Go. Now we're in Menorca. Back stock. So you moved lock, stock and barrel, um, total courses to Menorca and Menorca idea about, ab No, no, that was the beginning. The first idea was to go back to my roots, to be, the owner of a. Not more, like a dependent then no longer to be working for somebody else. Not for somebody else. Yes. I just wanted to, to go back and work for myself. And, uh, so I started to, to looking for, locals and I came across mine and I said, well, this is not bad. And I rent it. I was still living in Madrid, but I was renting also the place here in Menka. Uh, because a DI was, uh, start again my own business. And I really had very clear ideas about it at the beginning was really, uh, a shock for the beaches and, dress to go to the beach, uh, to the go to the cheering gito, but with glamor, you know? Yes. Yeah. With style. With style. And, uh, then I, I, I realized that my clients, my, were not all this, but something more. So I start to bring different brands, more expensive and more, quality, talking about fabrics and so on. And, I can say nowadays my shop, even publish shop, the two shops are very, are on the list of Citadel, you know? Yeah. And it's clear why. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a lot of work, behind, you know, it's not simply start a job and, openly it's, it's not very easy sometimes. You know, because of the place, people are very conservative and, and used to go where they used to go. So they don't want to, to go to a different shop if you are not, native or something like this. So I decided that it's, my public was simply the tourist, right? Which is the best public because when you are on vacation, you feel free, your mind is free of your problems you have in your own town, you know, and maybe you, it's more easy for you to buy. And I dunno. Um, for me, as I say, I travel for inspiration and, and it's when I shop and because I want to see. What's different in a place, you know? So you mightn't always be buying and if you're traveling, obviously you can't always carry large items with you. Yeah. But I'm a designer, so obviously I love design and, that's why I was attracted to the, your store. But I think it's also that when people, they have the time, and we live in a world now where people don't have any time, and many people live in suburbs and they go to malls or it's very unusual to have the time or the place for it to go to, you know, beautiful shops. I mean, and this is a beautiful shop. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And I understand how difficult and how magical it is to curate beautifully. You know, I understand retail enough. I actually, I used to, I have done some design for retailers like Susan Gray, which is a, brand in Australia. And for Apple. And, you have to have many, many different price points. So it's accessible and it's also special. Yeah. And I think you've done that beautifully. Yeah. This is the secret. And it's the secret which may be obvious to people and may be obvious to people who are listening to this, but certainly, there's a science and an art to anything that, that really has that power. And I, and my belief is that very few people have that in them. It's unusual, and when you see it, you go, oh, you know, it's like walking into somebody's beautiful house. Yeah, yeah. Mm. Yeah. It's very, it's very, I don't know. We are very proud of it, you know, and Right. So e even when pharma come in and say simply, ah, what's a nice shop? What nice stuff, it doesn't matter if they don't buy, actually. I mean, it's, it's okay. They, if they buy, it's better, but it's not only, shopping is also the experience they have when they come into your shop. Yes. And they feel like home. That's for me, it's very important that the shop, shop is not so simply a place where you put your things and sell your things. It must be something that's, surround you and you feel like a home. Yeah. And, and, and I think when it's for, you know, with tourists, it's like when they can walk in and see these beautiful things and then imagine them in their home, they want to bring them home. I mean, as we were arriving, there was, people buying these really bulky, heavy things that you think, okay, you wanna ship that the whole way across the Atlantic. And, that's amazing that people want to do that. They don't even think, okay, this is a ridiculous concept, but they want that memory of their trip, and that's what you're creating when people shop on holidays. Also, also, I think that the. Products, uh, in the shop is like me, like them, you know? Yes, yes. Yeah. Well, are there things that you love and so you're very happy for to share them with others? I mean, and, and I think that's the essence of it, isn't it? And, so you've had this store for how many years now? This one is two years. This one is the, this is the fifth years. Yeah, fifth year before we were on the other side. Right. It's a small one. And then this year we moved to this. And the other shop, it's already seven. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. And you outfitted all of it. Yeah. And so, and how so the experience then of, okay, I want to live in Menorca, I'm going to. Work for myself, I'm gonna have a shop. And so how has life unfolded beyond the shops, has Menorca given you, is it feeding you creatively and um, you know, are you loving your life living here? Yes. I think, uh, I can say that I'm 60 now and I'm very happy to, to be what I am. Yay. Good for you. Cost me quite a lot because I wasn't so happy until now. But now it's okay. Uh, I can say, really that I'm very happy about myself. Great. Yeah. I mean,'cause this is, i've been thinking about this.'cause this trip for, for me was, um, a to island to bury my mother's ashes. My father has been there for 10 years, my mother now. And so it was with my family. And so it's so interesting every road you drive down and when you don't live in the place you come from, you see it really differently and with fresh eyes and the memories come. Yeah. And you, they go, okay. They go, oh, okay. And you're reminded of so many things, you know? Um, and for me, I realized, you know, I was in a relationship in my twenties for all of my twenties in Ireland. And I first left at 17, but I haven't lived in Ireland since 1990. And I realized I was really hard to love, you know, at that point in time because I was so antsy in myself. I was not at peace with who I was, where yes, I, and you realize it's a choice, but it takes us a long time to learn that. Yeah. It's, well, the good thing in our life, is that we are completely free. I don't understand people when they feel, tied to their place. I mean, that, that's could be your memory. It's okay. You can, you can get the, the nice things you lived in that place. Yeah. It's not the only place in the earth. I mean, oh, there's so many beautiful places on the earth. Yes. Why not, discovering new places and stay a bit here, a bit there. I think it's amazing this, this possibility that we have is already said sometimes that people don't understand that they have this possibility to start something new, to, to make themselves happier. Because if you stay always in the same place, always with the same job, always with the same person, must be so boring at the end. You know? Uh, it is even where you stay lots of time with someone, you, there's a point of, reaction, which is a burrito or what is the Italian term for it, you said is for. The Italian term for Rito, which sounds like you're being annoying. Annoying. Yeah. It sounds like that, but what you were saying is, is it's, it's a knowing that you need to do something different. Yes. So much more poetic. I'm gonna have to get you to write that one down. I'm gonna have to use that because where I come from, I suppose, I feel like I have this real impulse now to move back to Europe from being here again. You know? And I've tried so many times and it just hasn't happened. But now I feel like I've gotta make it happen. And, it's people like you, you know? It's the essence of people it's the mix of culture. It's a mix. It's, it's the refinement, it's the design, it's the curiosity, it's the openness, and the playfulness and the humor is one of the things that I miss the most. You know, And there's the ViiV too. Yeah. When you were speaking earlier about, when your Spanish wasn't so good when you arrived, I always think the French are so much more unforgiving when your French is not good. So Spain is a, Spain is a good country to contact English. Even the English, uh, very strict. Ah, yeah. I remember when I was in London at, at the beginning, well, my, was, my accent, my language wasn't so good. And I was talking, asking information to someone who was from London. They didn't understand me at all. They didn't try. They didn't try. Yeah. Yeah. They were so selfish. But if traveled and if you haven't had that experience, I think you don't understand. When my, ex-husband was in Sydney he got on a bus and asked to be let off at a particular stop, which is a very, you know, like simple request and the bus driver said, Hey, what do you think? I am a taxi driver, which is him making a joke. But if you don't understand the language and the energy is who you, you misunderstand. It's a very challenging sounds different. Yeah, it and so for you, of course you're happy to be here talking to Pablo now. You love it as well. You feel like grounded and yes, you belong here. And, and what's next for both of you? Mm-hmm. It falls Well, the Menorca is a very nice place to stay and, but, we are thinking about moving when we finish here, because it's a very little island. There is nothing to do. I mean, when you finish, when you are, you don't have anything to do when you are 67, when you get your pension. It's, for me. It'll be very, very shocked because I'm used to I can feel it. You like to be busy. Yeah. And suddenly I, I found myself without, any project, anything like that. I think Manca, it won't be in my place anymore. So, one question that I really want to ask is, so the mix between the creative soul and you're both creative souls, but there's always a balance between who's the kind of the business, the strategic person, and the creative. And obviously, you know, that's a, that's a mix here for both of you. And you live together. And you work together. Yeah. And because. To create something like this, there needs to be a, a lot of constraints. Yeah. You know, and like, and this is I think where a lot of creatives, sabotage themselves is because they want to do this and they want to do this, and they want to do this. And of course, you can start with a great big vision, but then you have to, bring the project back into a human size. Yeah. Um, and you know, you start with something small, how have you navigated or how have you danced that tension? Uh, the tension between us with the tension? Yes. Between, okay, I want to do it this way the practical and the magical Yes. You always have to think that's, uh. If you have an idea, always you have to adapt the idea to the place where you want to start. The new idea, of course, uh, we were thinking something, uh, bigger at the beginning, but, I think that everything comes by chance. When we start, we start as a small shop, you know, but, uh, for the occasion make us bigger. Oh, so you explain, I love this because that's, it's like you start with an idea of something, but you have to become what the project demands of you. Yeah. And so it's, so you have to grow into the project. That's right. And, uh, it happens, by chance. By living here. Yeah. You know, every retire, every day, you know, something new. And this is why, uh, we, we knew about this, this place. Oh, so you know more people and you get more contacts very important. Yes. Yeah. To reach the, the, the origin of the, of the idea. Because when, when Pablo was in the other shop, was too small, was too really small shop. And, uh, he didn't have the, the chance to, to show himself so people maybe didn't realize what's really he was, he couldn't shine there. Yeah, that's right. Now it's different. And you being the Libra, son and him being the airy son. Yeah, yeah. You both need to shine in different ways. Yes, that's right. And so will it be mayorca or back to the mainland? I, I really, I'm really fond of b Erics. I think it's, it's good. It's very nice to live, in the island. I know it's a sort of bubble that prepare you from the, from the rest of the world. Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's curious because I came to Mayorca the first time because I discovered that my venous line, so like you, I have my Venus in my second house and we, and my rising is also Pisces. And, and I got this pull, and this is before I even knew this, I had this pull to go to Majorca, you know, I, and I thought, why would I want to go to Majorca? It's where British people go to get drunk. To eat, chips and eggs. Like, no, you know, but not only that, I discovered there's parts of it that are that, but it, most of it is not that. Yeah. Um, but the pull was there. I had this, you know, mayor and Mayorca kept on coming up and I kept on putting it off. And then when I got there, I fell completely in love with it, it was so fascinating because Panama's such a great city. There's such a great art scene there. There's such a beautiful, precinct there's so many beautiful parts of the island. And I came to Menorca because friends of mine were saying, oh, all the artists and the creatives are in Menorca. I've loved Menorca, but I think like you, I would choose Mayorca. Yeah, same feeling like you, you, you had with the Mayorca. Now you said, I I had to go there. I have to go there. And, and you, you was there at the end. It happens to me, but with, Menorca, right. When I was in Madrid, I always thinking about Menorca because, uh, it was the, like the, island of the Bali Islands, you know? Oh, the forgotten island. I said maybe if, uh, it's a forgotten island, it's something that I, I'm looking for. Mm-hmm. And uh, was like that. So I can, I understand you very well when you said what you said about my York, okay. Is there anything I haven't asked you that you would like to share with people because I would really love for everyone who comes from Menorca. I'm sure I don't have to tell them they're just gonna come here anyway. Why they must come to our shop. Why they must come. Why? Because this, you can have an experience, you can find something different. You can, you can see something nice and it's a beautiful memory of your time here. Special people, maybe very special people. No, everybody will know that. It's Pablo Luca. I didn't realize that you'd come from Italy. When we were speaking first, the lady who works here said, oh, it's Pablo shop. Yeah. Um. And so we spoke, and then I realized he was an architect. And, and I thought, oh, of course. And then I think you came into the shop and we started speaking. And it wasn't until afterwards that I realized that you were from Italy. And I thought, oh my God, what a beautiful confluence of two different cultures and two different people who meet, you know, in Madrid and then come and set up this project, you know, two shops in this beautiful island and in service of beauty really. So thank you. Thank you, coming and, and meet us and, have this nice, chat. And, it is not the first time that's, someone make an interview. The second or no, the third time. Because once, once, there's a quite important declaration review in Portugal. And the director of this, paper that comes, comes out every few months. It's called, aptitude. It's an interior review. The director came into my shop and she was impressed. She did an interview, take pictures, but I didn't know was going to publish the, the article, the review, and the year, half year after I said to Pablo, I, there are lots of in Menorca because. And talking with that, I discovered that they were doing a tour of the restaurants, museum and shops. Well, in the review.'Cause it's a, a number dedicated to Menorca. To Menorca, yeah. What special, uh, about Manca. And, uh, we, we had, uh, a full page with pictures and interview, uh, was really nice. So thank you for taking the time. I really appreciate it. And I know that you now have a dog to walk. And there's lunch to be had. Ah, yes. We're carved into the siesta time, okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening. If you are in Menorca, you really wanna go visit Pablo Luca. And, and so that's Espacio five and ASPA 22. In There are two temples of taste you can find and follow them on Instagram links are in the show notes below. And if today lit a fire, I've opened a handful of one-to-one Astro branding sessions. It's all in your chart. It shows you that when you do what you love in the way only you can for clients who love what you help them accomplish, while you build a brand. You are proud of and a life you love living in the world gets better for everyone. My Spanish may be terrible, but my strategy's fluent. You'll find the booking link in the show notes. I'm Eilish. This is the discipline of freedom and until next time, make something beautiful like you mean it. The music is by AOD and you can find them on Spotify. Once more, the links are in the show note. until next time, Thank you for listening.