0:05

So welcome to the Discipline of Freedom. In this episode, I'm in real raw conversation with Antonio Pedicor, named by Denizen Magazine as one of Sydney's 10 up and coming artist, and listed among Australia's top 100 Hot and collectible. Now Antonia didn't do the tidy school to uni to gallery path. She's the daughter of Sicilian immigrants raised in Sydney's western suburbs, far from the art world. She imagined a bigger life. Built it first through fashion, then PO to raise four children and later, like a woman with a match in a petrol station. She went to art school to show her kids to be the role model for what's possible when you refuse the limits of your first world. So we took creativity, culture, money, motherhood, debt, discipline, devotion, and the brave art of becoming who you are and the courage to dream a new dream. If you're ready to clarify what you're really communicating, start with brand signal. It shows you the signal you think you're sending versus the one people actually receive and exactly what to change. Listen to the episode, then take brand signals. Let's get into it, shall we?

Speaker 3 1:59

Antonio welcome to Discipline of Freedom I really admire your work, and I love the fact that, you've followed your dreams. So I Great fa Oh, thank you. It takes huge courage,

Speaker 4 2:14

it took huge courage. Look, trust me, it took a massive amount of courage.

Speaker 3 2:17

Antonio Perricone, a celebrated artist in. Sydney in Australia, but she's also extended herself to New Zealand. And I know you're in Melbourne and you've just grown this career. And what's more inspiring is this Antonia is a mother of four children and this is a second career. And it's a career from what I've observed. I think you're on your third gallery since I started following you a number of years ago.

Speaker 4 2:52

Yes, I've got, a few galleries.

Speaker 3 2:55

This is in Sydney and so I've been following your work and just seeing your work. Mature and the confidence that's gained from doing it. And to go back to school after you've reared a family and you started your career in fashion. So welcome. And the first question that I always start with is what was valued when you were growing up? And pre-recording, we've gotten into some juicy topics, but I'm really, really wanna save this because I know this is going to be a wonderful conversation. So can you tell me what was valued when you were growing up?

Speaker 4 3:34

I would say one of the things that was, oh, food was massive food. Food, the actual like honestly like it was the center of everything that we did because my parents came here with a very survival. Like yeah, they were in survival mode when they arrived, and it has stayed with them ever since. The garden in the back, everything revolved around food. Food was huge because food connected the family. And so it was a central part of everything we did. Everything we did revolved around the season and what we could share. And so, yeah, so that, I would say that was one of the things. But then there were other I guess different sort of. Ceremonies also that were part of my culture and that were played an important part of a role in the whole thing. Yes. And the dynamics of the family.

Speaker 3 4:28

So your family, your parents came from Italy. What part of Italy did they immigrate from and did they come together?

Speaker 4 4:35

No. So my parents came, both of them lived in Sicily and in the same town, actually across the road from each other. There is a five year age gap between them. And apparently my father fell in love with my mother when he was very young. But they came over independently. I mean, my mother came over a little bit differently. Her brother came over. I mean, my story might be a bit like all over the place, but her brother came over first with my mother's. In my mother's case. Her brother came over first as an immigrant, opened a fruit shop. Very like typical story. And then he was able to. Pay for each of them in, there was nine of them, uh, eight, actually one passed. He was then able to pay for them to come on a a cruise, on a ship. But once he achieved the citizenship, he was then able to bring them all over. So then he slowly paid for them in groups to come over. And and that's how my mother arrived. My father came through the immigration system. My nunu. He was part of the war. And and then I think the town was affected by earthquakes and Mount Aetna and there was a lot of poverty and then there was an opportunity for them to come. And so that's how my dad came. But my mother came a bit differently. Yeah.

Speaker 3 5:56

And then they connect us again when they were,

Speaker 4 5:59

yeah. And it was funny because they had a choice between, canada and Australia. So there are a lot of people from, a lot of family from the town of Boud in Canada. Not directly related but I think they kind of huddled together and they all migrated and then ended up, I don't know how they found out where they were, but they all ended up in the same areas, like, and Guilford was one of them, and Ardt, so Ardt Guilford. Um, but they moved, they knew each other in the town, so they stayed together when they arrived and then they moved, suburbs and purchased homes and worked in those locations. But it was funny because a lot of people think that when they, a lot of them like the migration came in and they went out farming, but in my case, my parents were they were very poor in Poudre and they lived in a small town. So when they arrived. And so the farming culture they knew how to farm and my dad had all of, they had all of those tools, but they were the workers in those towns. They were not the farm owners. They were sort of at the other end of it, they were like, they were the laborers of the town. So when they came to Australia, the inclination to start farming stayed in suburbian kind of size plots, because that's all they had over there. And then they worked for other, then they ended up, working in the workforce. They didn't have that broad-minded concept of buying land and cultivating because it wasn't part of their particular village. There's lots of different. Italians that came and did different things. But in my parents' case, they had a very tiny village mentality, so it stayed that way.

Speaker 3 7:42

I sincerely believe that we can only imagine to the point of our exposure. Father used to always say that travel was the University of life. And what it did was it opened you up to people, places, ideas that you wouldn't have had if you stayed where you were. And you know, it's interesting what you're saying is that, they replicated what they had there because that was familiar in a strange land. Yeah.'cause they came here with

Speaker 4 8:13

Abso like they came purely out of fear. They lost their town. Like, because, you know, the town crumble, they built another one which exists, but I don't even think it's been that used, but, so they came here with loss and then, and fear, so that kind of stayed with them.

Speaker 3 8:31

And how many of the nine, like was there almost the entire family came or,

Speaker 4 8:35

So s Angela, Maria, Anna, my mom, s Frank, that's six. Um, oh. And, uh, s Fei who passed away. Seven, eight yeah, there was eight. I think they had, there was nine in the family and two passed away. One in Italy as a baby and a young man. And then eight here. There was eight, nine. Yeah.

Speaker 3 9:04

Yeah. So they all came essentially. Yeah, they all came

Speaker 4 9:07

here. Yes.

Speaker 3 9:08

And that would've brought an extraordinary sense of family that they would've cultivated and that would've really held them, I imagine, in those beginnings. Oh,

Speaker 4 9:18

yeah. They relied on each other. I mean, and they all lived in the same house when they arrived. They were relatively young, they all lived in one home and that home was only achieved because of the fruit shop. Yeah, he started their live livelihood here. So there were, there was the fruit shop, they all worked in there. And then eventually they got jobs in other places, but they all came and the house was purchased through that one business. But unfortunately after they arrived, it wasn't very long. He passed away. Oh my God. How sad. Yeah, he just died of a heart attack once they all arrived. And he was very young. It was only in his thirties, I think. Uh, I can't recall. I was so young, but. He passed away and he the fruit shop sort of ended and then he opened up like a convenience store, uh, like a take a milk bar, I guess you call it back then a milk bar. And then, yeah, he just died all of a sudden. And it was a big sadness for the family because he represented hope

Speaker 3 10:17

yes. And also that power of just being able to, help them all, you know, I mean, he was the patriarch in some level.

Speaker 4 10:25

He was, yeah, he was a patriarch. And he also I guess he also represented the future of what, like an expanded future. And then once he passed away again, that village mentality stayed.

Speaker 3 10:39

And so then did you grow up with lots and lots of cousins around you? Like, did they all live within a close approximation of each other?

Speaker 4 10:47

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, by the time I was, when I was born, we lived in Guilford and from the age of four or five, I was allowed to wander, like throughout the entire suburb because I had my nonna on this street, my Zia on that street, my nonna on that street. So I would just leave the house whenever I wanted and just go off. I mean, I'm talking about a good 20 minute walk but nobody would be worried about me, that I'd be, I'm going to Zia's house by. Okay. And then I would walk halfway and I remember I was only, I was so young and I remembered that at the time you had, I think it was like two two seconds on a public telephone call, like on a public phone, you got two free seconds. So I was able to pick up the phone, recall the number, and then say, see, I'm on my way. So she knew that I was leaving and I was halfway at that point. And then I would just keep walking. We had the library, we had shops, we knew all the owners of the delis, the milk bars. So they sort of see me wander through the streets of Guilford and there was never an issue. And there was always someone around. And yes, all of the siblings owned houses in that area. So you could just kind of go from house to house to house to house.

Speaker 3 11:58

So it was like living in being held in this big village atmosphere essentially.

Speaker 4 12:03

Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, definitely. Like on every block there was somebody that was a family member that owned a home in Guilford at the time. Yeah.

Speaker 3 12:10

So, I know you started your career in fashion, but where did the creativity come from? You know, that imagining, okay, I'm going to be in fashion, I'm going to do something differently

Speaker 4 12:20

I think because I was given such independence at such a young age you know, I was left to my own devices. As I said I think the first day of kindergarten I was dropped off at the front by taxi. I remember losing my earring and being devastated because I wore these big giant christening earrings. On the first day my mother dropped me off and after that day there was three of us. If it rained, they would get a taxi to work you know, they'd start be starting at 7:00 AM So can you imagine us as children, we wouldn't start school till like nine. So like from my sister's aged down to me and then. We would be just waiting for the right time to leave. So there was no parental supervision. We were independent. And so, you know, there was a lot of imagining but also I think I always, because I spent a lot of time in the library, I would actually spend a lot of time walking to the library by myself and reading books. And I think that I am always imagined myself doing something else and not l living this kind of life because I knew we were lacking even at a very, very young age. And I always wanted more. Yeah, even at a very young age. Everything was lacking and it was hard, but, but I always had this hope, this kind of like secret hope that something else was gonna happen. And I think that just continued on into my teenage years. And the same thing, very independent, left alone, a lot. Parents are always working. And that just then fueled this creativity and idea. And it was just innate. Like if you see all the family members, you know, they're all creative. It's just a natural part of who I am. It's not hard for me to create anything, and I'll be honest about that. I don't find it difficult to create anything. It's just so normal. And that's how I grew up. And I think it's because I watched the farming. Like if you see my dad, I mean, I remember my dad would've, he used to make his own, he was a steel worker and, uh, on the railway and he'd, he'd be at home and he used to love fishing and he'd be forming his own sinkers and tools. And I'd be watching that. And then. Then you'd see my mother in the, you know, where the chickens were and the animals we had in our backyard. And I'd see her, plucking them and preparing them for a meal. And, there was so much creativity. I mean, just in the making of everything. There was nothing. We didn't make clothes, food. And I, it wasn't until I was like, after the age of 10 or 12, that, that sort of, was less it was, it went on to my teens. Like everything was made at home. We didn't shop. I didn't, we didn't go to restaurants. We didn't go to shops. We didn't buy, I don't remember rarely buying clothes.

Speaker 3 15:08

There was this, how would you say this industry, this the essence of craft everywhere, everywhere. It was similar because I grew up, my mother used to put us to bed and make our clothes, you know, so we grew up knitting and sewing baking and cooking, and I think it was part of that was of the time, but it also was, even in Ireland in that time, you know, my friends didn't do that, but yeah. And it's such a gift actually, because what it means is all of these skills going out into the world. And so, from knowing that, what brought you to the point where, okay, this is where I'm gonna take this.

Speaker 4 15:48

Okay. It was actually, I was absolutely over and done with. Living in the western suburbs and the schools that I went to, because my parents didn't value education, they valued work and labor. Were really, really tough. Like the school of hard knocks, we are talking about really difficult environment. Kids that are brought up in really low social economic situations, housing commission. So I'm in that high school and you know, there was a lot of problems in the school, so I spent a lot of time not at school. 90% of my time was not at school because you couldn't even get educated in that environment. It was impossible. The behaviors were extreme and rough and hardly anyone turned up to class. So, I distanced myself because I could see. That it was not a good environment. It wasn't healthy, it wasn't productive. It wasn't, I wasn't being educated, so I just stayed away. And I think that encouraged me to want something else for myself. But I was very quiet because being brought up in the culture that I was brought up in, I was incredibly respectful and quiet because I knew I had this sort of understanding that my parents had no idea really what was going on, or they didn't understand the culture of their own external environment. They were so inner and so in their own space, they didn't really get that, that wasn't a great thing to be educated in that environment or this is not a great suburb. I remember my father buying our house in Kula, like near Liverpool. And the only reason not thinking that this is like a difficult environment for me to grow up. He bought it because it was near the Georges River, and he could afford the house with more land. And he knew that being near the river and near a bush environment, like he grew up like land that he didn't own but was accessible. He could then forage for things and we would then live off those things. Eels, asparagus wild herbs, all that sort of stuff, rabbits. But he didn't, they didn't think, oh God, we're going into a very deep hole of society that is involved in drugs and lots of. Problematic things for young children. They just saw the promise of the actual in the land and what they purchased. So, and because I knew their struggles and I understood their mentality and how they thought and, and how they didn't get it and didn't understand. You stayed very quiet and I just got on with it and I just coped the best way in that space. And, but knowing that also gave me the idea that I had to get out, but I had to get out on my own because I was brought up so independent and I wanted more than that. And I knew the difference. They didn't. So that was just through observation. And again, age of 10, I would say when I started primary school there, I knew I wasn't meant to be there. And it was hard school. I mean, we young children like 8, 9, 10, exposed to like hard drugs. Actually experimenting at that age in that community. So not that I was involved. So I stayed away and I created my own, idea of what my own future would be or what it would look like.

Speaker 3 19:15

That's such an extraordinary story. And, and so your, siblings, were they two siblings? Older, younger, older. And what were they doing at this time? Were they also, you know, were you having conversations around this or

Speaker 4 19:35

No, no, no.

Speaker 3 19:36

Very independent doing your own thing?

Speaker 4 19:38

Yeah, well, sort of all very independent. My sister is six years older than me. My brother's four years older than me, so there was a significant age gap between us. So they were doing their own thing, but they also were quite industrious in their own minds and wanting more. We, it was just, I don't know, an innate thing within us that we would have to do it on our own and achieve more independently. We were not gonna rely on my parents to actually guide us through that space. We had to do it on our own because we just knew, they didn't know, they didn't have any clue, and they didn't know how to express that because they were still in that frozen survival mode, like my entire life. Like they were still frozen from the migration. So, we didn't have this expectation that they would bring us up in that way. We did it ourselves. And, but, the good part of it all was the experiences we had culturally with the food and the family but we just kind of navigated our own existence. It was weird, but it worked sort of,

Speaker 3 20:34

well, it sounds like there was a very strong, foundation and base. So there was a, there was a stability and I think it happens with, immigrants. There's a naivety. Yeah. I have a theory that most people leave one country and go to another and they just replicate how they lived in the country that they came from.

Speaker 2 20:55

Yes.

Speaker 3 20:55

Do that in the new country, and it is a courageous thing to immigrate, but the more courageous thing. Which isn't always possible, or isn't even within people's imaginations, is to think, oh, wow, I could live really differently in this place.

Speaker 4 21:11

I guess with anyone that comes into a new place, depending on their experiences, and like if they come in with, from that country with this idea, I'm going to create a new space for myself. Yes. But most of them don't. Because they're so fearful and my generation, I don't know like me being, born into that sort of, yeah. That fear still stayed,

Speaker 3 21:32

so that's super interesting. Just going to bring in your astrology here because your rising sign is Sagittarius, which is the natural Explorer. Do you know a great deal about astrology I'm a Scorpio. There, you're Scorpio son and your son using this house system is in the 12th house, which means that often you don't have access to your son when it's in the 12th house. I always describe Scorpio as being the psychic detective of the Zodiac in terms of its, you know, the archetypes or the alchemist are the it's, there's always a power play with it. It's the Alchemist and it's the transformer. And so it's not afraid of change. You know, where, and that's why I think a lot of people think, oh, you're Scorpio, you know? I dunno if you've ever had that reaction. Um,

Speaker 4 22:20

yeah, I think mostly in jest, like, oh, watch out. She's a Scorpio, but Yeah.

Speaker 3 22:25

But really why I think a lot of people have that response is because Scorpio tend to be able to read the undercurrents and they have a strong psychic sense of what's going on. And of course, if you know things about people that they may not even know about themselves are that they're not telling others, then they feel that you've got a power over them because, you know, it is a strong, it's a strong energy when you,

Speaker 4 22:53

yeah, I always say I am like a Sicilian white witch because I have this sense of, but again, I don't know if it's because I've had such a traumatized childhood, but I have this sense of people's oh I feel like I have a sixth sense and I can figure picking people out really quickly, but I always think is that flight and fight mode? I dunno.

Speaker 3 23:14

I'm sure it was cultivated from the experiences of being a child. I mean, we're all a product of everything we've experienced, but if you believe in astrology and, you know, and astrology basically operates off the hermetic principle of as above, so below. And as I say, you know, the moon is pulling the tides, which is probably the most obvious example. And we're 90% water. So it makes sense that it would have some impact on us too. And the energies are always changing. It's completely dynamic and as within, so without, and, you know, and there's a really strong fire to be brought up in a certain way and then say, well, I'm going to live differently because I think so many people replicate their parents replicate the environment that they grew up in.

Speaker 24:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3 24:04

Having a rising sign. Your rising sign is Sagittarius, which is the Explorer, and Sagittarius is, is the h octave of Gemini in terms of, it wants to know more, you know, it's the center with the arrow, and it holds a vision, and it holds a vision for something that's greater and it's driven towards that. It's, um, it's mutable fire, so it's got a lot of energy. And then your sa, as we said is Scorpio, and then your moon is up in your ninth house of Dharma, which is in Leo I always describe Leo as hair flick and giggle, you know, so it's kind of look at me, there's always a light and a shadow side and the light side and the powerful side of Leo is, it's completely authentic in its performance. I use the example. And coming from Italy you'd probably like it of conclave, you know, when you saw that movie and you see all the Vatican and the costume and the pageantry of the Catholic

Speaker 2 25:04

church.

Speaker 3 25:05

So they knew really, really well how to separate themselves from what we'll say the common people.

Speaker 2 25:11

Yeah.

Speaker 3 25:11

They elevated themselves, and the other example I use is the royal family. And we now know that they're just ordinary humans doing ordinary things that happen to be born into a particular family. But the reality of it is that Leo knows how to put on a show. It knows when it needs to step into a particular role. And to dress for that role and for to play the part of that role,

Speaker 2 25:36

it dress for that role,

Speaker 3 25:37

makes me so happy.

Speaker 2 25:40

I

Speaker 3 25:40

love

Speaker 2 25:41

dressing up so much.

Speaker 3 25:43

Oh, and that is, your moon. And, and, and I, if your moon isn't fulfilled, then you're always on a relentless pursuit more, and your moon in your chart is conjunct. Vesta, which is, you know, independence. The vest virgins kept, the home fires burning in Rome and they didn't have to take husbands they could take lovers, but they, unlike other women who depended on a husband for survival the Vestal Virgins were independent. And that's sitting right on your moon. So there's this independence and it's in this Leo. So it's like, I will know how, or I'll discover how to put on my own show. You know, that's how, in that emotionally fulfilling way, because our moon is very much connected to what we really desire to do. So it's so interesting because, you could ask what's fueling your fire, and, the second house in, um, in astrology is how we make our money. It's our own self worth, in our own self value. And then it's like, how do we use that for, to bring value out into the world? And our ambition and our will is Mars. And you have Mars right there in Capricorn. So you, it's like the building of a career, the building of a life, the building of whatever I'm doing. And you have that fire of Mars, which is, the god of war. But, and it's often seen as a maleic in astrology, but it's saying, don't go after what you just want. Go after your desires. Go after what really fires you up,

Speaker 4 27:19

Making fires me up. I love making stuff like, and then if you start talking to me about being creative and I go into someone else's practice, I'm like, do this and do that. It's a lot. I'm a lot.

Speaker 3 27:30

It's great that you're a lot, I mean, you know, being a lot when we own our allot know instead of Hiding It, was there a point in your life where, you know, people kept on saying, oh, you're too much, you're too much. Did you, how did you overcome the too muchness?

Speaker 4 27:46

Um, I've had conversations with, oh, you're too much. But then I, then I reflect and i'm very good at adjusting the too much. I tend to now, as I've matured and I'm older, I tend to sort of isolate the too much to my own and that's what actually social media is great for that because I guess before like the too much would've been shared. It's not being egotistical it's not but I can be more of myself on a social platform that is, is visual, which makes it a much easier to be too much because not everybody is like me. So I try to keep it separate. I've got many people, many versions of myself. There's the too much, which if I could be honest, I could, I would like to be too much all the time, but I know that doesn't serve everybody, and that's selfish. So, yeah. So the too much is kind of blended, but I've been told I'm too much a lot.

Speaker 3 28:49

Well, I think that the, what I see as the journey to maturity is learning, number one, how to use your own energy.

Speaker 4 28:58

Yes.

Speaker 3 28:59

Wanna do. And also be aware of the impact of your energy on others. Yeah. So you can, you can tone your energy down or you can, crank it up. That's what I do. Yeah. So as needed. Yes. And then it is interesting'cause your north node, so in astrology, you know, it's seen as our south node are the gifts that we come in with. These are the gifts and the belief systems. They're the conditioning, and they come from education. And it says that we carry seven generations of energetic DNA in the same way that we carry seven generations of physical DNA and your south node is in your 10th house. And the 10th house is how you shine in the world. It's your public, your professional, you know, it's your brand essentially. the journey to the north node is taking what's great of what we've received in that south node. And your south node. is Bringing all that, we could say heritage into the new experiences that we're here to experience in this incarnation. And this is why we came. And that north node for you is in the fourth house, which is in the house of Lineage. It's the house of family. I see it as self security and self belonging. And self belonging is a big journey for everybody, and some people go into that journey and some people don't. And it's in the sign of Pisces. And Pisces is about being here to realize the dream. It's the sign of the artist. It's the sign of the dreamer. It's about transcendence. And I see this in your work this. Absolute thread that's held between the mystical and the mundane and between the real world and the magical world. And do you wanna talk about how you feel that has come into your work or the journey to, you know,'cause you've been on a monstrous journey,

Speaker 4 30:56

it's crazy. Yeah. I have been on a monstrous journey it's, it is, it's insane. But it's great and I'm very grateful. Yeah, no, the work I always say it's incredibly emotional and connected with myself and whatever else is out there. I don't know. But yeah, in order to create abstraction, it's the craziest, if you wanna be an artist and make it really hard, become an abstract artist because, you know, you have to then try to translate this idea of something that doesn't exist to the audience. It is, I am making a living out of it but I am genuinely painting from a place that is mystical, I guess you could say, definitely. And has doesn't exist, but I create it and translate that onto a surface with color and line and abstraction. So I'm not traditionally working with the constraints of constraint, like the construction of a, an abstract painting where, and I understand all the academic part of making an abstraction with balance and color and composition, everything. But I don't work like that. I literally just. Dive in deeply and create, and the work then evolves. Actually, it feels like when you're painting, it's like you put the paint on and it feels like it's actually coming towards you constantly. I feel like I could keep getting this flow of energy just, and then I make the mark and then it comes back. It's like a bouncing experience. It's very, very strange. But at the end of it, I know when to stop or add, and it just kind of comes to me. It's like you're in a dream and you wake up and then you suddenly say, okay, I'm awake. You know, and that's how it feels when I'm painting. It's like I'm literally in a very deep sleep and then all of a sudden I wake up and I'm like, here. And then you. You're in real life and then you look and you're like, oh, okay. Was that a dream? That's what it feels like when I look at the painting. Every painting I look at and every painting I paint, I feel like who painted that? And was that a dream? Because I don't even remember being there.

Speaker 3 33:08

So it sounds like that you move into a trance state, and you're allowing, you're opening your channel and allowing that just basically flow through you. Can we step back a little? And so in your twenties you worked in fashion and you had four children. Yes. Yes. So you weren't painting then. No. You've been painting for what, the last 10, 15 years?

Speaker 4 33:35

Well, I started painting, again, creativity in the household, like at home, like growing up, there was no such thing as drawing and painting. There were no books, there was nothing. It was food, religion, and family and fashion. And being creative was not something on my mind. I never drew, I never painted, never went to art class. I didn't go to art school when I was young. Again, I never, hardly ever turned up to any of the classes anyway at school. The only classes I was interested in were English and history. Other than that, nothing else. And so I was very successful in fashion because when I left, when school was over, I was expected to get a job and that was it. And the only thing that was creative or I thought. Had some type of industry was fashion because that's, I knew how to sew already and I was 16 and so I don't know why I decided to go to tape'cause I could have just got a job in a shop selling fashion. But fashion did interest me at a young age clothing. And for some reason, maybe because I I, I didn't have any employment when I was leaving school that I went to tafe. I started the course in fashion there, and then sitting in a class one day, they mentioned to us that the likelihood of us working anywhere would be in a factory sewing on the factory floor. And I decided to find my way out because that was not gonna be acceptable. And I made my own way into the city. Very secretly because I knew traveling into the city was a big no-no. But I found my way by organizing my own work experienced, and I was very, very lucky to be placed in the advertising department of David Jones. Unbeknownst to me, it was the only role that existed in Australia. And I was an assistant to the actual fashion status, which what we did, and again, I didn't think it was not normal. It was so strange. I was so adaptable it and it was so easy for me. I we did all of the David Jones catalog TV commercials, all the editorials, anything to do with advertising and promoting David Jones itself I was involved in. And besides that, I worked in magazines. I worked as a fashion buyer. Again, with no training at all, no education, just being present and knowing that I could just do it and didn't think about it, was just part of who I was. So that went on. I worked as a mill enough. I, I did lots and lots of things. And I did independent editorials. I worked as a freelance stylist, but I was 16, 16 to my twenties. And then this is where that conversation I had with in, within your own community, cultural community, there's kind of like this pressure to conform and you kind of regress as you get to a certain age because I think it's the family has this expectation, so I regressed and then it's living

Speaker 3 36:49

I call it living somebody else's dream.

Speaker 4 36:52

Yeah. So there was a regression on my part and. Once you're in it, and especially if you're dating someone or you are with someone that is part of your community, you regress into that kind of culture. And I think hormonally as well, women change because like when you're sort of in that phase of oh, it's time to have babies, you tend to sort of soften and become more adaptable and empathetic towards your own environment. And so I did. And that's when I started having children. And I let that whole industry go. Again, I was working in television, doing wardrobe. I had this incredibly huge career. And then, I don't know, something happened, there was a regression and I then fell into

Speaker 3 37:35

What age were you when that began Probably 24, 25. So coming up to your first set in return, which is that moment of where it's the adulting moment. You know the moment. Oh, right. I'm an adult now. I need to kind of make my own life.

Speaker 37:52

Yes.

Speaker 3 37:53

I say for the kids of this time where they realize, oh, I can't about my parents to pay for everything forever,

Speaker 4 37:59

yeah. And also, I mean, I had opportunities, like I was I was headhunted by a style styling agency in New York to fly over and style over there, buy it, a large chain. Like there was lots of things that happened, but I held back because I felt I had a responsibility to start that future. And I did. And I don't regret it, but I did. It's part of who I'm

Speaker 3 38:22

And are you still married to that man? Yes. Amazing. So, there's so many accomplishments on so many levels,

Speaker 4 38:31

the long, it's been a long journey.

Speaker 3 38:32

Oh, it's a big journey. And to have that exposure to this whole world, which would've happened in advertising. And well, that was the moment

Speaker 4 38:42

where I was like, of all those, I remember being like, 12, 13 going, there is something else out there for me that was a very big full circle moment for me that was like, I'm, oh I'm here. I knew that I was meant to be there, and I was here and that was like when I was 16, and onwards. I just remember because I was going to that school of hard knocks and witnessing some really extraordinary behaviors and things. Again, not participating. Very separate, very quiet. I never spoke, I never actually had a lot of friends there. I was very quiet, held myself back, but just witnessing it and observing it on the outside knowing it wasn't what I wanted and there was something else out there for me. When I ended up at David Jones, I knew that was for me and I was so into it. I just was, loved it so much

Speaker 3 39:32

did you move into the city or did you still live out

Speaker 4 39:36

no, no. I lived in the western suburbs and I traveled an hour and a half in on the train and an hour and a half back every day without any but I question never questioned it. You just did it. It's just you just got on the train and you went to work and you came home

Speaker 3 39:48

Moving between very different worlds.

Speaker 39:51

Yeah.

Speaker 3 39:51

Huge. On a daily basis. And did your world at home understand? The world that you were occupying and inhabiting during the day and the opportunities?

Speaker 4 40:01

No, there was no connection at all. It was almost like I was, you know, that sort of 6-year-old girl walking around Guilford, completely isolated, separated, independent. There was no interest in what I was doing because I had a job and that was all that was important. They didn't care about the structure of it. How incredibly crazy amazing it was. It was, I just had a job and that was important to them.

Speaker 3 40:24

And did your clothes change? Did your appearance change? Did how you spoke about things change?

Speaker 4 40:30

Oh yeah, most definitely. Because I saw things and I experienced things that I'd never had before. Like even just going to a restaurant and sitting down at a restaurant. I remember Nancy, who was the head stylist, knew that I had no clue about what was in front of me. There was two sets of Capri and three glasses and. She intentionally came brought me there early to explain it all to me because she knew I was like so naive and so incredibly innocent and, and so then my world opened up. We were doing, these incredible fashion shoots on the harbor in these mansions and hiring these homes that you would only dream of seeing. And then all of a sudden my mind expanded into, I'm a very different person here and I'm a very different person at home. But I blended the two I just kept, but my clothes, did they change? Yeah, I was always experimenting with fashion. All I could think about was I had a reputation of having a different outfit every day.

Speaker 3 41:29

And your paintings are now hanging in those homes. Um, yeah. So that's super interesting. And so when was the moment then that, you know, with four children, which is a full-time job? Did you work the whole way through the children? Yeah. Growing up

Speaker 4 41:44

I did very odd jobs. Uh, like you name it, I did it. We, again, in survival mode, bringing up children mortgage and whatever. And I didn't have any, I didn't question it. I just, I worked because I had to and I just did lots of different things. You name it, I did it. And even raising other people's children, I did lots and lots of good things, but because I didn't actually get an education in fashion or any type of, I didn't have an education at all. The vocation to be stay in fashion. Wasn't, I wasn't pulled into it. It was kind of like, it was just normal. And so it wasn't as though I had achieved, something on paper that said, you are this. So I just took it for granted that I could do everything and anything, and I just did it. And so when I wasn't doing it, it didn't feel, there wasn't that huge loss. So I just then evolved into something else. And then there was a moment in time as the children were growing up, where I started to realize that if I didn't educate myself, if I didn't become that person that I saw the potential in back then they may, not, well, not saying they wouldn't, I didn't know, but there was a very high likelihood that they may not wanna achieve a great deal either. So my motivation to go. To school, to achieve an education per se was purely because I didn't want them to experience what I had experienced, which was struggling through life because I didn't get an education and I wasn't able to go back into something because society changed. When I was 16, there was, you could do anything I had Trent, Nathan, Stewart member knocking on my door saying, come and work with me. I want you to be my pa this and that and the other. Like, there was no need for a qualification. But then all of a sudden I had the children and I was a mother, and then they grew up and then I realized, oh, you need, education became a thing because we had more people in the world. It was more competitive. So without the education, you really weren't getting a foot in the door anywhere. And and then I, then that whole career, I had felt oh I can't use it. And so then in order for me to see them achieve something, I knew they had to be educated. And because I wasn't, I felt like I needed to be an example. So I went to university, I guess wanting them to lead on from that. Yeah. So from that, yeah, that was the only reason I went to uni, honestly. And the only reason I chose art was because I knew I was creative and it was something I could do. I had no academic experience. I hadn't read books. I hadn't written an essay. I hadn't honestly completely going there, like I was studying kindergarten. And but I knew that if I, if I did it, then they would follow. And I,'cause I didn't want them not to be educated because it was much harder in the world for them without it.

Speaker 3 44:40

And so your children, did it make you very conscious of the schools that they went to so that they had a better education yeah,

Speaker 4 44:49

One thing I did do was live out of the western suburbs. That was also difficult'cause everybody was, all my family lived there and it was, not that it's a bad place to live, it's great, but I just knew my experience at school was so hard that I didn't want them to be exposed to that. I was just very different in the sense that I stood back from it all. And I didn't participate in a lot of the difficult behaviors. And because I understood, I think because my family were not wealthy I understood the struggle. So I had empathy for those children and I could see that they were participating in those behaviors because that's all they knew. But I didn't wanna participate in it. But I had empathy you know, nature versus nurture, I knew that if I had taken these kids and left them there, then that it may be harder for them. So I knew that if I moved away from it, it could, it would be a better environment in generally. And it was hard for us to move away because again, the affordability and everything. And, but in my mind, it was because of David Jones also because I saw the other, another side of society and another side of a community that had the education and had the vision that's what I wanted. So moving away from what I experienced was important to me. But it doesn't mean it's bad I wanna I guess put a poor light on that environment, but it was difficult for me. So I'm translating that as a personal experience. So then I didn't want that to happen to them. So yeah, I moved away.

Speaker 3 46:21

Well, our environment shapes us. So first we, we decide the world that we want to experience and then it shapes us. And, it's an interesting thing. I could mirror the same story. My, when I was born, we were, we grew up in, we started in a low socioeconomic and beautiful people, as you say, they were beautiful people. But my mother had come from a different place and my father had traveled, and so they knew there was more, they knew there was a better education to be had in a different place and there was different exposure and you know, and your children mixing with different kids who had that vision and all of that. So we moved house when I was seven years of age to, the other side of the city, which was a small city, but it was a much higher socioeconomic space. And, from that point of view, we went to different schools, so we mixed in different circles. So you, you are exposed to different dreams and different experiences

Speaker 4 47:26

and that's what I wanted, for them. And, and again, but then I still got to a point, but I felt like, I remember listening to a podcast and it was about the impact of that and in mothering as well. And then we need to lead by example. And then I was looking at my situation and I was like, I haven't continued, as I said I let go of a lot of it. Because I took it for granted. I let go of a lot of opportunities. I mean, at one point I was offered a like an opportunity to apply for an assistant editor to L Magazine. It was like, it was huge back then, but I was kind of like, oh yeah, no. And it was just like, because I just didn't know. I was so naive. But but again, I, what I was acknowledging is that I, I had to lead that. My partner's, my husband's incredibly hardworking and he has led a very successful career in his own, in his own space. I just felt like what I was doing, if I had continued down the pathway of, in the fashion industry, then that would've been an example. But I didn't feel like I was achieving my potential in the role that I was in at the time. And I had to do better than that because I knew I was better than that. And yeah. And that, well, the only way to get there was through education. And I chose fine arts because I could figure out that I could probably paint but that was when I was 40 something.

Speaker 3 48:51

So you went back to school and you went to the national art school?

Speaker 4 48:55

No, no, no, no. So because I didn't finish my schooling properly, I had to do a, preliminary type course. So I went to TAFE in order to get a certificate. Um, and I was mature age able to apply for university. So I went to Medibank tafe and then I went to Sydney College of the Arts, so part of Sydney University. And. I did a speed date on the diploma course in order to get into university.'cause I had no educational background. I had to do something to get in. So it was a big stepping stone. So I did a few years there, but they speed dated it because of my ability to naturally draw and paint. And then from there I applied at uni because I was like, I need a university degree in order for them to get one. I just felt like I needed to pass on the baton because I thought I just had this fear that they wouldn't see that there would more, even though they were going to good schools and everything. I felt like I had to be that example. And again, I had no expectation of becoming an artist. I just wanted to finish the degree and say, look, I've got a degree. And that's it.

Speaker 3 50:03

The power and the determination and, you know, the chess bar. Amazing.

Speaker 4 50:12

It's a bit insane. I mean, but again, I don't even realize it's wonderful.

Speaker 3 50:17

Celebrated. It's like it's, you know, it is that force of nature that women often told, they're too much, but it is a force of nature and you wanting to be the role model for your children and it's that classic thing of, okay, if I do this in order for this to occur, and of course there's intended and unintended consequences and we never know, and this is, I think is the magic of life. Is that when we make one decision, we have no idea where it's going to take us and either embrace that and enter into the mystery of it. Um, or we can be terrified. And going back to before we hit record, we were talking about, holding that space of, you know, when you have debt and holding that space of uncertainty and of not knowing how things are going to work out, but holding that energy of your vision and you have done that so successfully and so powerfully. I mean, you're an extraordinary role model for your children. Do they realize, do you wanna talk about that energy?

Speaker 4 51:28

Yeah, look, I'm doing this and look, I often go, oh, that's enough now. I can't do this anymore. Like, it's hard. It's really hard. Especially when you need to contribute financially. It's not like if I'm not doing this, I need a job. It's just, this is just my life, you know? I mean, there's many good things that I've done. I've done some really dumb ass things and, you know, I think they, they see me as a, mother and I think like the traditional role as of a mother, they get frustrated with that translation between who I am here and who I am there. Social media is really tough because, there is a part of me, like that whole person on social media is real and that is genuinely who I am. But then there's the mothering part that they want more of that I think than they want more of the art part.

Speaker 3 52:18

Of course they do. What age are your children now? They're all

Speaker 4 52:21

very, they're all very mature. It sounds, makes make me sad. So, turning 30. Turning 28, 21, and 19.

Speaker 3 52:29

They're so wrapped up in their own parcels Yeah. As they should be.'cause that's the natural stage of evolution.

Speaker 52:37

Yeah.

Speaker 3 52:37

Whereas, they want the mother to be there, at their beck and Cole, which is

Speaker 4 52:43

Oh yeah. At their service. Yeah. No, no. I mean, I still come home every night and make meals for dinner. Like, there's no break. Because I still have two, the two boys are at home and you know, I get home from the studio no matter what time they're not making meals. I'm making the meals and everything that revolves around the mothering part. It's, again, it's a cultural thing too. They see it like, yeah, I'm different to what's out there in my family in that sense. Whereas, a lot of them, especially at my age, maybe not other generation, but my, they're still sitting in that very traditional role. So that's their observation of what I do. And so there's sort of like a yearning for, mama Antonia, you know, like mom at home cooking cleaning and being that person I was, they had it for 20 years,

Speaker 3 53:38

Which is absolutely amazing that they had that experience. So you've played that role?

Speaker 4 53:43

Oh yeah. I did. Very well.

Speaker 3 53:45

Time. You are going back to college to get a degree and then. Can you talk about your evolution as an artist? Because you don't come from the art world. And the art world is a, a business and a corporation and all of those things. And it's learning to navigate that. And it's strikes me from looking at your career that you're learning, you've learned very well.

Speaker 4 54:10

Yeah, like I think being an artist you do really have to navigate what you're doing very carefully and take risks. And I've taken risks and I've worked with some great people and and like the mentors

Speaker 3 54:24

And the value of mentors within that space.

Speaker 4 54:27

I think, when you are working with good curators and gallerists they sort of become your mentors and the fellow artists that you work with. Like in my studio when you're building good relationships with other artists, they become your mentors. A lot of things. A lot of people become your mentors. I wish, yeah, I adore like all the experience I've had in the gallery, but I've had to make some moves. Purely because I would say also for my age, I've changed galleries. I was with one gallery in Sydney for three years, and then you suddenly realize, okay, where, what am I doing in this space? How is this working? I adore them all, what have I got to lose by making a move? This practice is a completely independent thing. It's a business I'm running. I provide the materials, they provide the other part of the service, which is finding collectors and everything. So it's a 50 50 arrangement, literally. And, but I'm always considering what's going to happen next for me. Like I'm always working a year ahead and I think I have to consider the fact that I've invested so much time in this, what is the longevity of my career here? And so I've gotta to be, I'm always seeing the future of myself. And so I move towards the future, and it might be uncomfortable for some people, but in the industry, but I did not come in at a young enough age to have any foothold because it's an ageist environment because everybody wants young and cool and here I am this like, you know, 55-year-old hanging in with these cool dudes, but like, she's only just arrived, so what the hell? Excuse me. I don't know if we want you to sit here, but I know I've got what it takes and I know I can do it. Proven that. So I haven't got those relationships, but I don't really care. Social media has been my friend because I'm able to express myself and connect with the people that are collecting the work. The only thing I haven't hit town on, I don't enterprises I really do. Because I've got enough work that keeps me operating. But I think Curatorially, you've got two different types of artists. The one that's entering prizes being valued curatorially, but it might not be a prosperous business in that you're able to continue building you build curatorially, but financially it might be difficult. I sit in between, I have, there's value in my work Curatorially, and I was told a long time ago, if you don't come through the right channels and at a very young age it can be very difficult to be, considered curatorial. And, but I've seen that side, the curatorial side, and it's not fun either. Do

Speaker 3 57:11

you wanna define the difference between the curatorial and the collector and, the gallery and how the system works, because I think you've touched on a very interesting point about how artists careers are built. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 57:28

They're built from the university onwards, from school to university onwards. And if you're not in that system, like I'm a miracle, I'll say that,

Speaker 3 57:39

no, no, you're a unicorn. I I absolutely see you in the same light I see you as a unicorn.

Speaker 4 57:45

And I value, and I honestly, I grateful and value that experience that I've had. But if you're not coming through the system, it's really hard to get a foothold in that. And, I think because I've taken risks and also I don't even know if it's risks. I like people and if I see that there's a relationship that can build, be built, then I don't go there with intention. I just like people and I'll talk to people and I get to know people, and then if something's meant to happen, I believe it'll come to me. And so I just let things happen organically and I've just maybe been in the right place at the right time. I don't know.

Speaker 3 58:30

How I see the system of the art world is, is you go to college and there'll be some brighter lights at the college, and then they're nurtured by particular galleries. Yeah. And the way that it traditionally you build your career is, you might start selling for say, 500 or a thousand dollars or whatever, and then every show you double the prices. Yeah. The way it works, you're saying it's 50 50. I've always understood it as 60% went to the art as 40 to the gallery, and I'm sure there's variations on that and so

Speaker 4 59:03

Not really. I think it's pretty stand now. 50 50.

Speaker 3 59:06

And so as a consequence, the gallery, brings the collectors, the gallery shows the work, it has the contacts, if you're with the right gallery, you've got access to the right people who will buy your work.

Speaker 59:19

Hmm.

Speaker 3 59:20

And then of course there's the whole system of prizes and I see, and I think the Archibald is a great example in Sydney, where people who have never been POed painters will enter a portrait. Yes. Elevate their status in the art world. So that's what I see as the power of prizes. I think it's probably a good example. Would you, do you agree?

Speaker 4 59:43

Yeah. Um, look, prizes are difficult. It's a tricky environment like prizes, it's a lot more complicated than you think. Like some prizes you'll get entry to the prize because of who you are as an artist and what career you've built, because they're acquisitive and they wanna collect your work. So then you are in. And then it may rely on the judge and the judge's idea of what is good in art. Then you're in and then, or you might be you might have a connection with the curator the places are incredibly limited because there is a very big flurry of great artists that we have in Australia, and if they apply again, you've got a very limited chance of getting a spot in an art prize. So it's a very complicated system and if you do get in, it's great and it can build your career, but then it can't because a lot of people go into the Asher board. They say, oh, you know, I got in. But then nothing happens after that. It's just an opportunity for you to share on social media that you got in. And it's great. Galleries aren't necessarily looking for those artists that get into prizes. They're not I think they skulk around on social media and they might see you work in a prize and think you're great. But there are so many great artists, is how do you stand out? It's very hard. It's very hard.

Speaker 3 1:00:59

Well, my background's in branding and people think that they stand out by competing with others in the compare contrast, but really in the end, it's the integration. You know? And you have this extraordinarily powerful story your origin story, which, and your progression and the determination, and this podcast is called The Discipline of Freedom. Yeah. And the discipline becomes a devotion when you really love what you're doing and when you see the pathway and also the fruits to your labor.

Speaker 4 1:01:33

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what keeps me going. So, if you were to say anything about prizes, I don't know if they're that important. In Europe they don't even exist really. The galleries are the ones that are competitive. For the artists. It's not the prizes. But here in Australia, we got this tall, poppy grown and we are all trying to be like each other. And I think the thing is with me, and I never have, going back to when I started painting, around in their forties, I would say that I never really had a focus on, comparison to another artist like there was no competition. I'm my only competition and I don't think about what other people are doing. And so, if I don't get to enterprises, I don't really care. I mean, I'm lucky because I'm in a gallery, so I have to shut the hell up because I think I'm in a gallery and I've got that. That's my, platform, but if I didn't have that platform, you can find other platforms to be seen. And I think, yeah, the pricess are good, but they're definitely not the be all anddo. No. I just think that's a false, but it does help the cv, it does help the collector. They wanna see you getting prices, but I would say in some ways the collectors that's a naive approach to collecting art. If the artist was being collected by a museum or being shown in a particular place. That is a big deal. But getting into prizes, there's a ton of talented artists. It's not the biggest thing. The Archibald is more for the public than the artists. Even artists talking amongst each other. You know, if you get in, it's great for your career, but it's definitely a public event. It's great for the Art Gallery of New South Wales. It's a full branding event for the Art Gallery of New South Wales. It's not really for the artists.

Speaker 3 1:03:09

I didn't want to focus on the article, but what I do think is that because of the trajectory of your career and your life journey, essentially. Yeah. You have this and I'm being the Scorpio is one of the joys of being a Scorpio is, is that you have this micro to macro view and you're looking at the art world, even from the outside in, you didn't grow up in that tradition. So as a consequence of it, you're not, there'd be rules and there would be subtleties within it that you're not aware of. And sounds like it's really worked to your advantage.'cause you're going, okay, so what is it that I want to create here?

Speaker 4 1:03:49

Yeah. I guess that's the thing. I've always just thought about what I thought and I'm not worried about the rules because I know i'm not interjected into that culture because like you said, I didn't come in young, so I'm having to make my own rules in a way. And because there's a lot of disappointment. This I could say so many talented people, more talented than I am Jesus. And that deserve platforms. Uh, but I think that's what I'm saying. You have to create your own rules, otherwise you're gonna be constantly disappointed.

Speaker 3 1:04:19

And I think that's the nature of, the world that we are living in at the moment.'cause we're definitely in a space of systemic breakdown in so many ways. You know, there's the saying of like, that my father had one job, he worked in one place for 36 years. It would be said that, our generation had seven jobs. Yeah. But your kids will have seven jobs at the same time. Yeah. So the job titles haven't even been invented yet.

Speaker 1:04:45

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:04:46

It's constantly changing. So the system is changing so dramatically. And in your 11th house you've got your, which is Libra and it's ruled by Venus. And Venus is all about aesthetics and beauty, and it's about bringing it to the community. And you've got Jupiter, which is considered to be the Santa Claus of the Zodiac, expanding that ion sense of beauty and aesthetic and of bringing that harmony and bringing, bringing, we'd say art to the people in the sense,

Speaker 4 1:05:17

I love that because now I'm going to the studio. I'll keep that in mind while I try to finish up. I've got three paintings, have the finish, and I'm like, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:05:26

So what do you see, you've accomplished so much. I look at your work and I love to see an artist who, mature. You see their work become more and more confident and becomes clear and clearer and they become more and more themselves. You know, and I really do believe it is that integration that creates a difference. And I'm sure there's many, many young artists who are looking up to you and going, oh my God, how has she done that? And you have compacted a art career, you know, you've done it in a very, very short period of time. So, really big kudos to you. So what does the, what does the future hold for you your future self imagining up now?

Speaker 4 1:06:11

Oh, imagining i've got things in mind that are like reinventing maybe. Working overseas more and having more space for myself to create. I'm not putting all my eggs in my basket in Sydney because I think there's more out there and I want more. So I think, yeah, an expanded practice is definitely on the cards. I mean, there's so many things I want to do with my art practice, but I need the connections and the time. I would love someone to work with, I've always had someone in the studio supporting me, but I haven't had that for a while. Yeah, I feel like the world is my oyster and I wanna do more, but it's just, whether that's available to me at this point, I don't know, but I'm going to give many things a go. It's so interesting because, um, I've been saying forever, like, I wanna go overseas and all of a sudden, and I had this vision that I was going to be there and now, next year I'm going to Tuscany to teach, in a villa near Luca. And I'm like, ha, that's incredible. That happened. If that happened, if that vision actually in my head was like. I wanna be overseas and to be able to afford to fly over and have live there and have time and everybody's circumstances are different and I have like, as I said, a family so the affordability factor was is huge in my head. And I'm like, okay, can I do this? And then all of a sudden this opportunity comes and I've been taken over to teach for a week in a Tuscan villa. I'm like, that's insane. If I can see that and make it happen, or actually Bishop, well I, that, that happened then I could do anything. And I'm like, okay. And my goal next is representation in another country besides, I've got New Zealand, which I love to death, but yeah, that's the bigger picture. And to make really large work that is expansive, be part of installations. Fashion. I love fashion. Anyone hand up come over to me with fashion ideas or anything like that. But yeah, I'm up for a lot, but I think, yeah, I think expanding is the big thing. Expanding.

Speaker 3 1:08:25

And do you have a process do you keep a vision board? How do you, how do you hold that vision?

Speaker 4 1:08:32

I've got, I think I've got lots they just sit there with me all the time. They just sit with me and I just have an expectation that, that's gonna happen.

Speaker 3 1:08:41

Well, what they say is, expect miracles. Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:08:45

That's the only way I think, I just have this expectation that these things that I want to happen will happen. And it sounds extra, but I just, I know that when I'm painting, I'm working towards it anyway. Like, so it's kind of, it, that's part of my practice. I am working towards the goals that I'm dreaming about in my head. You know, it's just part of it.

Speaker 3 1:09:05

And do you paint every day?

Speaker 4 1:09:07

Every day? There's not a day that doesn't go by. Yeah. Unless I go away for some, a short time. But, you know, I mean, I had a little break in Bali with the family. We got back on Thursday night. I was in the studio at 8:00 AM Friday, and then Saturday Sunday. And then Sunday afternoon I sent my daughter off to Milan. She's staying there for a time. She's an architect and I even took up that space in the morning on the Sunday knowing that she was gonna go away. But I had to work. I have got work and so

Speaker 3 1:09:44

You put long days in at the studio?

Speaker 4 1:09:46

Unfortunately I can't because the studio's only open till eight, till five, so I've got a very set work workday, which is fine because it works it gives me time at home because otherwise

Speaker 3 1:09:56

and gives you a structure, for create, I think it's fantastic to have containers.

Speaker 4 1:10:02

Yes, the structure is important because without the structure it would be too loose. Because there's a lot of times I sit there and stare at the work and just do nothing and socialize and talk and, and then I'm like, oh God, I've only got an hour left. But I do a lot of work in one hour. Sometimes that's that, but that's part of the process. You can't always just be painting. Sometimes you just need time to process and then you work and often I'm only painting for one or two hours a day, but that's okay. I accept that. But I have to be in that space to create.

Speaker 3 1:10:33

Do you have particular rituals around your creation process?

Speaker 4 1:10:38

No. There's no rituals. I like, I'll just turn up again. I've got that same kind of. Sort of attitude where like, it just kind of feels very natural. So I just turn up and I just start working. There's no rituals, there's no nothing. I just start working. It's like my job. And I get in there and I go, okay, I have to do this. Yeah, I have to talk to myself a lot, like in talk myself into painting you, you know, you have to, okay, you can do this. I'm not referencing anything you remember. I'm not I'm literally just going in raw. So sometimes I have to like, come on. You can do it. You can do it. And I get up and I do it. That's probably the only ritual is just me talking myself into it.

Speaker 3 1:11:15

And you have this deep history of creativity and obviously there's, you know, growing up, initially every time I go to the Ephe, I just kind of go like, can you just show about 10% of it? Because you could go every day for a month. And still things differently. You know the patrimony is extraordinary, isn't it, in Italy, you know? And that doesn't mean that Italians go to galleries they're surrounded by art, there is beauty in the way of living, and there is beauty in the simplicity, and there's an integrity in that.

Speaker 4 1:11:49

This is threaded connection with life and creativity. It's really weird and that's how I feel. I feel like I'm just part of it.

Speaker 1:11:58

Don't

Speaker 4 1:11:59

feel like I've learned anything. It's just part of me and that's it. And I'm just, that's who I am. And it's like, it's just

Speaker 2 1:12:06

normal

Speaker 4 1:12:07

But I see it, even when I see images of Italy and from a distance, I can see the threads that just flow through I just it's normal and, just the language, everything. But, uh, I feel like I'm part of that thread

Speaker 3 1:12:22

and. What advice would you give to your younger self, you know, in those moments of, doubting that you can do it, doubting that it'll work out?

Speaker 4 1:12:32

Um, I think your first issues and is always your best. I think just take the risks and just, and actually be extra all the time. That's what I would give my younger self, be extra and be an absolute boss and just, yeah, just boss yourself into everything and be extra and it's okay.

Speaker 3 1:12:57

And do you give that advice to your children? I try,

Speaker 4 1:13:00

yes, I do. And they hate it.

Speaker 3 1:13:03

And so you have one daughter who became an architect, so that's, an achievement.

Speaker 4 1:13:08

Yeah, I, yeah, I have an architect, a carpenter. My daughter Faith, who is a printmaker, she went to national art school. She's an artist and currently studying Pilates as well, enjoying the health benefits of that. And my son, he is now studying mechanical engineering.

Speaker 3 1:13:28

Oh, wow. Amazing. So you have been an extraordinary, I'm sure both of you have been an Yeah,

Speaker 4 1:13:34

I think both of us have my, both myself and my husband. My husband is like steadily being on that, he follows that traditional role and works very hard and has been doing the one thing for a very long time, but is very committed to supporting the family.

Speaker 3 1:13:49

Wow. How beautiful and how beautiful to have that support of, a great love, of a great partner.

Speaker 4 1:13:56

Yes. Yeah. I'm, yeah, again, I'm very fortunate and lucky that he has been always the backbone of it. And, you know, and you know, there's been times where, my work is. It's not, I actually haven't never had scarcity, but where I've struggled and then, he's always there to back me up. So that's great.

Speaker 3 1:14:17

And how do you get yourself out of a funk when you get yourself into it?

Speaker 4 1:14:22

Scorpios dig deep. I just,

Speaker 3 1:14:24

um, dig deep. And they also trust, the process of change.

Speaker 4 1:14:28

Yeah. I think that's the thing. I just have to just, I just accept, I don't really get, I don't get caught up in the details. I just accept that's how I accept the funk and then I just go, okay. Yeah. I just, and I brave myself into just getting out of, I'd just get up. You know, I really, I talk myself into things. I always, I say to my children, you know. I know things can be really shitty, but just pretend yourself happy and and you'll be okay. Like, just pretend in your head even if it's like the worst possible thing that's happened to you, find that one little good thing and focus on that. And just pretend yourself happy into, pretend yourself into anything. Walk into a view uncomfortable. You walk into a room, just pretend yourself. Fabulous. Just pretend, pretend. And then eventually it feels okay. And yeah, and it's not being fake, it's just, kind of like convince yourself that you are okay. Convince like you've gotta, like, it's not easy for everyone to do it, but just focus on the one tiniest positive thing you can think of and then move with that. And then, rather than kind of getting into the funk because, again with artists, the funks are real.

Speaker 3 1:15:44

And it is a fake until you make it, you know? But I mean, and it's also riding the waves, it's understanding that it's, they're all waves, you know, they're emotional waves.

Speaker 2 1:15:54

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:15:55

Cycles in our lives. You're coming up for your second Saturn return, which will be in a couple of years. And Saturn is the master teacher. You know, it says whatever lessons we haven't learned at the first one, will come up into our consciousness for the second one. But also the second Saturn return is, okay, so how do I want to set up the next phase of my life? So it's, yeah, we have a mini cycle and every 28 years we have a return. Wow. Wow. Taurus, and Taurus is the most sensual of the signs, and it's in the sixth house. So it's how am I doing my day to day? How am I taking care of my health? How am I taking care of the systems and the structures that feed me that take care of me. Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:16:42

Yeah. I, and I think that's my focus now is that's why I'm almost like, I'm not unconsciously, I think, intuitive. I'm very intuitive and intuitively I think I know deep down that I'm actually preparing for the future, which is weird. Like, I'm just, like, in my head, I'm like the, having these expectations or wanting these things that I know that in my head I'm like, this is what I want. This is where I'd like to be. I feel like, yeah, there's going to be a change or a turnaround in something that is ahead of me, but I don't know what it is, but I'm just kind of working towards it anyway. And that's how I feel in life. I just work towards the, the positive goals that I wanna happen. And hopefully there's something there that. It's like really exciting.

Speaker 3 1:17:24

What is the legacy, which I think is a big question for an artist. What is the legacy you'd like to leave?

Speaker 4 1:17:33

I think it's just that, you can do anything. Just do it. Just, you know, like goals are whatever you actually think about achieving, doesn't matter how small it is, life is worth achieving anything for, so yeah, I think it's just about making yourself happy. The legacy leaving behind is like not wasting time and using all of your energy to enjoy this space. There you go.

Speaker 3 1:18:03

I think that's a beautiful place to end. Is there any questions that I haven't asked you? Is there anything that,

Speaker 4 1:18:08

you've been great and I love talking to you in the car. I'm sitting in the car, went and got a coffee. Yeah. So thank you for that time. Uh, yeah. So I

Speaker 3 1:18:19

was fun. Oh, thank you. I will let you know when this goes out and I will put the links to where people can find you on social media and your gallery, in it. And it's so interesting'cause you know, you never know where a conversation is going to go. And I think that's is the beauty of a conversation, to me, what came through in our conversation is the power of your determination your hard work and your commitment to creation, mm.

Speaker 4 1:18:49

Oh my God. It's endless. I don't mind like, and I have so much energy

Speaker 3 1:18:55

You have so much energy, which is not a gift that most people have, you have that in your second house, in Capricorn, you have Mars there, So the second house is how we make our money, how we resource ourselves. What you've embodied is that I am my greatest resource.

Speaker 4 1:19:10

I think it's the only way to be, because

Speaker 3 1:19:12

It is absolutely the only way to be, but it's a big journey to get to that point.

Speaker 1:19:17

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:19:18

Point of, that you value yourself enough that you. Don't care what other people think of you. That you belong enough to yourself. That you go, okay, well this is what I'm offering.

Speaker 4 1:19:28

Yes. And that's all I can do. And I think and I'm trying to use the best of me to then project that.

Speaker 3 1:19:36

And amazing. I absolutely admire your work, I also admire your journey. I have an understanding of what it would've been like to be, in the western suburbs as a kid, of immigrant parents. I'm an immigrant obviously. I came my father left school at the age of 14, you know, and so never really had an education, but education himself and was ambitious and went to England. During the Second World War and that opened his eyes to another sense of possibility.

Speaker 1:20:03

Mm.

Speaker 3 1:20:04

Like, I mean, my mother grew up with more privilege there were business people. But they also brought us up that hard work, and you went to school for, to get educated, to get a job. You didn't go to school to get educated, to be educated as such. Yeah. So it's so interesting. So I think you. Really extraordinarily proud of yourself. I mean, I'm extraordinarily proud of you, you know? Oh, thank you. I'm,

Speaker 4 1:20:31

yeah, I feel good about where I am now. I feel good about, I feel good about it, but like, as I said, this struggles I feel good that I've been able to find a place for myself that feels like, you know, like I said, I remember being 16 and turning up at David Jones and, in all these outfits that I was sewing.'cause I had no money to buy clothes. And I felt good about myself then. And it's kind of the same feeling. It was like I belong here.

Speaker 3 1:21:00

Well, it's the trusting, isn't it? And this is the hardest thing to ingrain in the younger generation is that you have to trust yourself to create yourself. And you have to kinda understand yourself so you can create yourself and you have to take risks. And for us, I imagine, you know, when we were younger, like we didn't know any better, so we just went, oh yeah, I can do that.

Speaker 2 1:21:22

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:21:23

Yes.

Speaker 2 1:21:24

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:21:24

Whereas I think these kids are told what they, are who they are and what they are and all of that, that they don't have that hubris of youth in a sense.

Speaker 4 1:21:33

Yeah, that's right. I know. And it's, and I, I, and I feel sorry because they like, there's that expectation that they have to be a certain way and it would be incredibly great to be free, but I always think of those kids, the ones that are really being pushed around to go in a certain direction. It's because their parents are lacking maybe in some way or another, and they want them to be able to, live their best life. So it's like, there's so many things, but then I guess at some point, like me, you get to a stage where you go, okay, well I just might do something else because I'm okay to do that and I'll, you just take the risk. But for me it was more like, I need my children to be able to be independent and be educated. It was kind of the other way around. But yeah, you would hope everybody has an opportunity to be themselves at some point in their

Speaker 3 1:22:18

lives and to dream their own dream.

Speaker 4 1:22:20

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:22:21

Yeah. And I will come and, say hello to your next exhibition and I'll let you know when this is, goes out. And thank you. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 4 1:22:30

Oh, no, it's been so good. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 1:22:33

Almost. I think the sky's the limit where your career. I really do. I think that, you know, London, New York, Milan, it doesn't matter. Your work has that universality to it.

Speaker 4 1:22:46

I want it to be. Like I said, it is so hard and it is,

Speaker 3 1:22:50

I know it's hard.

Speaker 4 1:22:51

It's so hard. But I'm going to do it.

Speaker 3 1:22:54

Well, you are doing it.

Speaker 4 1:22:56

I am doing it. You're

Speaker 3 1:22:57

doing it. And you have been doing it. You've made strides in such a short period of time seriously, pat on back. I know the art royals really well. I've been around it for the last 30 years. Extraordinary.

Speaker 4 1:23:10

I'm happy right now, so it's good. And I'm happy talking to you. It was so fun. Really glad. I'm so happy for the connection. I was like, I've been dying to chat and then here we are. So it's good.

Speaker 3 1:23:21

And bring that energy, bring that energy to everywhere you go because you are that force of nature. Yeah. And it is in your chart.

1:23:29

I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. If you're ready to clarify what you're really communicating, start with brand signals. It shows you the signal you think you're sending versus the one people actually receive and exactly what to change. The links are in the show notes.